Year built

Hrs.on the unit

Frequency of oil change

Any repairs, at how many hours and the nature of the repair. Damperplate condition Cost of repairs and any special conditions such as at home or while cruising If unit was replaced by another brand, why and total cost With this survey I ATTEMPTED to come to some conclusion regarding the longevity and repair record of the CR2. Unfortunately or fortunately there seems to be no traceable line of failure at a set number of hours! Noting the limited number of responses. The reason for my even attempting this little exercise was that I have a pair with 4700 hrs on them in my 1981 CHB.

Bob Smith and I were presenters at a Trawler Fest in Houston so I had the opportunity to ask him about them. In his own inimitable way he told me, “ You don’t want to hear this, but you probably have a world record for no repairs to a CR2.” Hmmmmm. As a result of that conversation I decided to have them pulled for inspection. Utilizing a good bit of experience gleaned from a posting by Terry Hoy, to Trawler World List, the project commenced. I called upon a local transmission shop that does Velvet Drive repairs, though not on ones as large as mine). The deal was that I would assist by opening the engine room hatch to its full width, (you know the drill, move the cabinet, etc.) provide all cribbing material, construct the necessary bracing of the cabin sole and provide the 4x4 timber from which the Perkins 6.354’s would be suspended as the back motor mounts are on the transmission. I was to be on site for the removal and installation as well as disconnect and reconnect the starter wires and the like. I also was the gopher for the repair kits and parts. This turned out to be THE major headache of the whole project due to the ineptness of the parts department of the local Borg Warner supplier, which is a big company! I digress.

The bottom line is that both units were in great shape. The damper plate on the starboard side was like new, very little wear. In fact, while at the  arts counter a Borg Warner serviceman saw it and asked “ What’s the a matter with that one?” A good sign.  We did replace the oil pump due to a little wear and most of the plates but that was it. Of course all seals, gaskets and the like were renewed. The port damper plate had one disintegrated spring but all the others were fine. Only the plates were renewed.

Everything else was ok. Parts came to about $770, which I paid for direct, and labor $756 total for both units. I also disconnected and reconnected the shaft coupling from the transmissions and realigned all after the mechanics put the transmissions back in. My doing so much of the grunt work saved a GREAT DEAL of green!!!

Since I had the starters in hand, they were disassembled and checked for wear. Both were in good shape. On reinstallation of the starters I ran all of the wires to new terminal strips so that only one positive and one negative are attached to them. This really makes it neat and clean. The conclusion that I have drawn from this is to do what Gary Brobst said “ Baby them”. I have always shifted at 700 RPM and have been careful to pause in neutral before shifting to forward or reverse. Remember that when the boat is moving and you shift to the opposite direction, the wheel, shaft and transmission must STOP and then go in the other direction. There is a tremendous amount of inertia at work here. With the foregoing in mind, picture this: On a previous boat with twin GM 6V53’s and Velvet Drives I was running, hooked up, at 20 mph, down a canal following the directions of a friend. What he failed to tell me was that the canal made a 90 degree turn with a bulkhead on the far side. When I saw that my heart sank, pun intended. I had a choice hit the bulkhead for I could not make the turn or shift to reverse and blow the transmissions. I chose reverse. Shifting as fast as possible but pausing in neutral, I went to wide open reverse and stopped only feet from the timbers. NO DAMAGE at all to the Velvet Drives. The following are the responses to my survey. Since the answers were all over the place the best thing to do was provide all responses and allow the reader to determine for himself what, if anything should be done on an individual bases.

RESPONSES:

I have approx. 3700 hours on our single Perkins T6.354 with a CR2 using 30 weight oil. Replaced rear seal on the CR2 in 1990 otherwise alls well.

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Yr. of manufacture: 1979

Number of hours: 5500

Hours since any work performed on it:?

Number of hours on Damper Plate when replaced: at least 3000, maybe 5500

Condition of Damper Plate: fair, I'm pretty careful when I shift.

If it was repaired what was changed:

Reason for repair: bull gear fractured

Symptoms: Starboard transmission froze offshore coming up the Georgia coast. Bull gear broke. Best price to rebuild was $4500 from Annapolis Marine Transmission who seemed to have the only 2.03 ratio bull gear in the world. I took a pass and replaced it with Bob Smith's Twin Disk kit which required raising the engine 2 1/2" and installing a 9" jackshaft to make up the difference in length. Kit including bell housing adapters and all required "stuff" was $3200, and labor another $3900 including new oversized mounts etc. Jackshaft had to be replaced after 25 hours because it was .030 out. If I had it to do over again, I would replace the entire shaft reducing the complexity of the additional jackshaft.

My logic was if I rebuilt the velvet drive at an exorbitant price I would still have an antique transmission. I plan to do the port transmission myself next fall reducing the cost considerably and put the old velvet drive on the market for those who opt for the antique path. How often, in hours, was oil changed: seasonally Cost of repair( Specify extraordinary conditions, homeport, on a trip,etc.): $7100

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Yr. of manufacture:

Number of hours: 1986

Hours since any work performed on it: 2400

Number of hours on Damper Plate when replaced: never replaced

Condition of Damper Plate:

If it was repaired what was changed:

Reason for repair:

Symptoms:

How often, in hours, was oil changed: 800 hours

Cost of repair(Specify extraordinary conditions, homeport, on a trip,etc.):

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I spoke with Bob Smith of American Diesel. Bob was emphatic in saying the key to watching for a gear failure is regular testing of the transmission fluid. The item to watch is iron (Fe on the report from the lab). When it gets into the hundreds or thousand parts per million, you are on borrowed time.

I have a DeFever 44 with 3000 hours. I am just preparing to slide the transmissions back to visually examine the damper plates - 3000 hours is the time that Bob recommends. My transmissions are original - from 1985 - no drips, no heat, no apparent slips and my last test 2 weeks ago shows Fe ppm at 58 - with 350 hours since last fluid change, which is not too bad. By comparison, my 41 DeFever had to have a rebuild at 1400 hours - splines on main shaft were just toast - I figured a previous owner had shifted at high RPM's a few too many times. I had it done in St. Pete for $1200, and it gave no trouble in the next 600 hours of cruising when I sold it for the 44 we have now.

I confess to being fatalistic about it. At some point it is going to cost about $3200 per side to install new transmissions, but that will be it for the life of the boat, or me, whichever comes first. MY experience, for what it is worth.

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Year of manufacture: 1983 Hours: Approximately 2,300 Hours since work performed: have only performed routine maintenance How often oil changed: annually, which varied from 25 to 100 hours, approx. Other: oil analysis has shown higher than desirable concentration of iron. When I consulted an "expert" he asked if we had been changing the filter. Told him I did not even know there was a filter. My manual, copied from a friend, does not mention one, either. We changed the filter and the oil this time and will see if the concentration of iron is any different after the next oil analysis.

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NOTE, my units do not have a filter nor does my book indicate one. CCC

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Waypoint, our 49 Defever RPH has Borg Warner Velvet Drives. Knowing that replacing them would be costly, I try to baby them as much as possible and keep my fingers crossed. We will be interested in what you find out.

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I have these transmissions. Since we purchased the boat at the beginning of 1998, I have changed the oil every 200 hours. We had a leaking seal on the port transmission two years ago, which was repaired. Since then, our ace mechanic retired. The starboard tranny has an oil leak. I had another mechanic replace the forward seal, which was not successful in repairing the leak. I am somewhat concerned about our transmissions even though they appear to be functioning normally. Our engines have approx. 1500+ hours since new in 1984. Tony Athens of Seaboard Marine who has various articles in the boating magazines on engines and transmissions, recommended that we not be concerned about the leak unless it became substantial. Although I'm presently following his advice, I don't like leaks of any kind, whether oil, transmission fluid, or fuel. A leak to me indicates something is not functioning as intended.

Our engines are 4-236 Perkins (85hp) and the transmissions are yr built 1987

hrs on the unit -- aprox 1,300 each

frequency of oil change -- unknown up until 600 hours, every 100 or less since any repairs, at how many hours and the nature of the repair.

--

only repair was both oil coolers sprung leaks at about 750 hours. Trannys were flushed out about a dozen times with diesel, diesel & oil, then oil. No malfunctions since other than one unit is now puking out about a pint of oil out of the vent after a change. Once it seeks a certain lower level (off the stick) it runs fine at the same or lower temp than the other transmission. I am in the process of finding a new vent to try that. (suggested by Jim Gano)

damper plate condition-- unknown

cost of repairs and any special conditions such as at home or while cruising-- the oil coolers were $65 each with about $35 overnight freight as we were on our delivery trip in Ft Meyers when the coolers let go. Maybe about $50 in desiel & oil for the flushing. I did the labor my self. If unit was replaced by another brand , why and total cost--no yet

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Having just done this, I wanted to share the information with the List. While the work done here was with a Perkins 6-354 and a Borg Warner Velvet Drive transmission, it may be similar to other engine/transmission combinations. For those who don’t know, the dampener is a disk device with about a half a dozen springs used to dampen the shock being transmitted from the engine to the transmission. It looks similar to a clutch plate on a car without the throw-out bearing. The disk is bolted to the flywheel and the transmission shaft is connected to the disk through a spline. These two pieces are connected to each other using the springs, which are about 1” in diameter and about 2” long. As these are continually transferring the power from the engine to the transmission, they are always being worked. Over time, they will start to wear the plate and themselves, start to break into pieces and eventually fall out. If this happens, the worst case is no power being transmitted to the transmission. You may think the transmission is broken, but it is not. Also, pieces of the springs can get lodged behind the flywheel and lock up your engine. Also check this out if you believe you have a locked up engine. The symptom of wear and possible failure is noise coming from the transmission while running at low RPM’s. It has beendescribed as marbles running around in an empty coffee can or stones in a hubcap.

Since I knew my dampener was worn, having seen it three years ago while have an in-field emergency rebuild done on the engine (an ugly story), I knew it would need replacement eventually. Since I had the telltale noise, I decided to do it this fall after haul out. I also used this time to replace the cutless bearing and check the drive shaft for trueness. The first thing I needed to do was pull the shaft to have room to slide the transmission back. Since I have a single, the propeller is protected by a rudder that is mounted on a skeg. I pulled the prop and thought I could push the rudder to the side enough to pull the shaft out after unbolting the bottom rudder bearing from the skeg. No such luck. Since I am on hard gravel, I dug a small trench about 12” deep and 3” wide perpendicular to the keel. I had enough clearance to drop the rudder in the trench and remove it completely from the boat. Pulling the shaft (‘s) was interesting. There are two sections, each about 7’ long. These are supported along their length with two pillow block bearings. These were difficult to remove but with a liberal application of Kroil and a wooden mallet, I was able to pull these out. I used a Sawsall to cut out the cutless bearing. I'll take these to a shop to have them checked for run-out.

The Perkins 6-354 is supported at the front by two engine mounts bolted to the block and at the rear by two mounts bolted to the bell housing. The transmission is then bolted to the bell housing and does not have any of its own mounts. This is interesting since the bell housing must be removed. The easiest way for me was to support the rear of the engine using a small hydraulic bottle jack. This was positioned under the engine so it would come in to contact with the rear edge of the block. This is not very wide and must be done carefully since the oil pan is aluminum. If you don’t do it correctly, I would expect the jack would go right through the pan.

I disconnected the two wires from the transmission switch on the right side which is used to be sure the transmission is neutral prior to starting. I removed the transmission shift cable and the two hydraulic hoses that run from the transmission to the cooler. I disconnected them at the cooler since all the oil had already drained back into the transmission. I covered all the fittings with plastic wrap to keep them clean. You also need to pull the starter off. I marked the position of the two mounts and unbolted them, then removed the bolts holding the bell housing on to the engine. When you do this you will find that two bolts are run from the engine side into the bell housing at the bottom of the engine. There are about a dozen bolts in all. When this is done, check to be sure the jack is just high enough to support the engine but not lift the transmission off its mounts. Now, just simply pull the transmission back about 6”, it will slide easily. The transmission and bell housing are balanced enough that it will not tip over on you. You may want to put a block of wood under it to support it for safety. My dampener was 13” in diameter with the 6 bolt holes, 6” apart and 6” from the center. The disk was worn, 3 springs had their last coil broken off and they were laying in the bell housing. American Diesel sold me a universal unit that has various bolt patterns to match different flywheels. I used a thread locking compound and bolted the new dampener in place.

Now came, for me, the difficult part, sliding the transmission shaft into the dampener spline. You need to be exactly lined up to get this to fit properly. I thought I had it when the bell housing was within 1 ½” of the engine. I used the bolts to snug the transmission up to the block. NOT! As I was tightening up one of the bolts, I heard a loud bang. I thought I had stripped out a bolt. I found I had snapped a 1” section of the bell housing, which is also aluminum, around the head of the bolt completely off.  I removed all the bolts and went back to square one. After a few more tries, I got the surfaces within a ½” with an easy slide. I was in! Now it was just a matter of bolting everything up and re-attaching all the hoses and wires. I was careful in lining up the mounts to make sure they were exactly where they were originally.

Total time - Removal: 3 hours, which included a lot of time understanding the layout and position of all the bolts, parts, etc..

Installation: 2 hours, which included the false starts in aligning the transmission to the engine. Cost: less than $150.00.

Satisfaction: Priceless… response to your email( better late then never). I have Borg Warner transmissions, I believe they are drop centers made in 1977 but they are not CR2s, I think.

Starboard is; model AS7-71C SS#34296 Ratio 1.91:1. Port is; model AS3-72C SS#27885 Ratio 2.10:1. They are in my 1977 Cheoy Lee LRC. Powered by 80 HP Fords converted by The Lee Co out of New Zealand. After putting About 8000 miles on them I had them removed and checked they found no problems but the clutches were worn enough to replace. since they are doing fine. If you want more info I will forward what I can.

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I have dealt with Mack Boring for over 20 years and found them to be a good company (the parent company of the Marinetransmissions.com)--however there is another marine transmission service which specifically has worked on Borg Warner Transmissions for many years--also with a good reputation and seem to have a comprehensive supply of parts: TMI of Fort Lauderdale. They have ratings of all Borg Warner Velvet drives and good exploded views of the transmission parts.

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Occasionally we hear on this list, someone bemoaning the fact that there are no parts, no repairs, and no replacements for Velvet Drive. I don't know how comprehensive these folks are, but it's worth a look. NOTE: Do a GOOGLE search for BORG WARNER and you will find a lot of outlets for parts. CCC

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Bob Smith wrote a nice piece in the August ( ’03) issue of Passagemaker Magazine about repairing the older CR2 transmission for the Lehman engines. NOTE: Also see the “companion” article by Robert Lane in the June ‘o3 issue of PASSAGEMAKER. CCC

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Let me pass along one bit of advice Charles. I had my Borg Velvet Drive rebuilt a couple years ago and didn't have much time on the unit when we left on the Great Loop. Well, it turned out to drip very slightly at the tail shaft and by the time I found that I was far, far away from the mechanic who did the work. Traveling from Florida to Canada took about a quart of oil, so it wasn't serious but very aggravating on a new rebuild. While traveling I had trouble finding someone willing to work on it, and who I trusted to do so, and who could do it immediately instead of three weeks hence.

Anyhow, skipping ahead, along the way I found another boater who had the same problem and had had his worked on twice without solving the problem. Being a mechanic for a race team, this was not an acceptable situation and he called Borg about it.

The solution turned out to be that Borg says to torque hell out of the rear seal -- something like 200 ft-lb, and to specifically put Locktite 515 on the splines to seal them. When questioned about such high torque on the nut, Borg told him not to worry -- it's impossible to torque it too hard.

So I pulled into Dog River marina and told them this is what I wanted done. They really didn't want to do that. As with other places, they wanted to pull the whole transmission and send it to a transmission shop. When I persisted that this was exactly what I wanted done, they talked to the transmission shop who said that was certainly not the way they put transmissions back together (part of the problem). The yard manager didn't want to work on the transmission because they had worked on several, and they always came back with leaks. He admitted though that they had never put one together as I described, and had never talked with Borg about it. So I asked to rent Dog River's big hogging torque wrench and do it myself (easy access on my boat).  At that point they relented and did it for me. Also replaced the rear seal while it was open, but it looked like new. Torquing the nut that hard scared the mechanic though. He was keeping the shaft from turning with a wrench pushing on some 4x6" wood scrap. At one point the wrench suddenly impaled itself half way through the board. The result is that I never had a single drip again after that. While traveling I had built a housing from aluminum turkey pans to catch any spray and keep it out of the bilges.

That stayed sparkling clean afterwards until I finally dismantled it.

NOTE: My Borg Warner parts and repair manual states the 240 lbs of torque. CCC

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Yr. of manufacture: 1983 Number of hours: 900ish

Hours since any work performed on it: 150 Number of hours on Damper

Plate when replaced: unknown

Condition of Damper Plate: unknown

If it was repaired what was changed: Reason for repair: whoever worked on it before me must have re-used the nut inside the coupling - bad, should have been new.

Symptoms:  throwing trans fliud out the coupling to the prop shaft How often, in hours, was oil changed: 100 hrs Cost of repair (Specify extraordinary conditions, homeport, on a trip etc.): $5 and 5 hours of me and a buddy fixed it.

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Our transmission has about 4200 total hours on it. The PO told us that he had the transmission rebuilt at 1500 hours, as a preventative measure before going on a cruise from Florida to Maryland. He remarked that the transmission was not giving any problems at the time.

This puts the time at 2700 hours since the rebuild. I have not had any problems that I recognized. The fluid is changed every 200 hours, and it is always clean and transparent. I pull a fluid sample once a year for various chemical analysis. So far, the results have always come back giving the transmission a clean bill of health. I have no idea of the condition of the damper plate.